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Archive through January 25, 2013

The Early A-Body Forum » General Discussions » Archive through July 16, 2014 » Fuel Injected 'Cuda » Archive through January 25, 2013 users admin

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Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 168
Registered: 1-2006


Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 5:38 am   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Hey Bill,
The pump will be mounted vertical as shown in the picture below and with a sock on the bottom it may touch the tank bottom. Even at that length it feels very sturdy, but no doubt it will bounce some. I've considered reinforcing the pickup tube with a long thin bracket.

Also I've considered taking a section of a fuel pump housing from an 95 F150 and clamping it to the pump so if it does contact the bottom of the tank it won't rub the sock off down to its metal collar. see the photo...



I know the plastic housing will rub but it won't tear up the tank as much. I'll use the rubber sleeve that came with the pump and a stainless steel clamp to hold the plastic housing in place. Any thoughts on this?

As for the cost, thanks for the offer. I feel that I got a good deal on the computer with the chip and the connectors. Besides, the only connectors I needed to buy were one for the coil and one for the ignition module. I even have the ones for the knock sensor and the knock module. If I didn't have the ECU connectors I would have called you!

I have a bunch of heat sinks from various computer chips laying around and planned on mounting one on the back of the bracket. Good heads up on that.
1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 169
Registered: 1-2006


Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 11:56 am   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Perhaps this awesome Photoshop rendering will suffice! A single piece of sheet metal going from the inner housing to two points on the pickup tube. That should give enough support to the pump and still let me fit it in the tank.

1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
64ragtop
Senior Member
Post Number: 398
Registered: 1-2006


Tuesday, December 11, 2012 - 12:54 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Way to go, Roger! It's all grist for my mill. I have gotten spoiled by the computer control in my '02 Dakota. It just starts dependably with no hassle and I sit there, watching the tach wander up and down a bit while the fuel and spark are adjusted for optimal running. Then I back out of the drive, having paid NO attention to a "start-up routine" of any sort.

Only thing is..I kinda see it as a slippery slope. Next, I'll want to start texting or playing online multiplayer games while I'm supposed to be driving!

ATB

BC
"I have gone faster, backwards upside down and on fire than most people have gone at all" Don Garlits
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 170
Registered: 1-2006


Saturday, December 15, 2012 - 5:05 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Using a template and some gaskets I have I took the time to make my Throttle Body adapter plate today. 4 through holes where the studs are and 3 drilled and taped holes to bolt the Throttle Body down. Using a really old, rinky dink, made to cut holes in wood, hole saw, I cut the holes for the bores.

The GM throttle linkage has a removable stud for the kick down like the Mopar so I removed it and installed mine from the Thermoquad. I used the inner cable from the GM throttle cable and fed it through my stock outer cable and connected it to the linkage.

A different kick down linkage and I'm all set! I'll clean up the adapter and paint it so it blends in better and use some allen head bolts instead of the studs to bolt it down. I may have to change the angle the throttle cable is at now for a better pull.

OK Picture Time!

Thermoquad off and position checking the throttle body.

I put the air cleaner on to see how it looks. You can't really tell if its carbureted or injected!

plate holes drilled and all others marked for drilling.

All holes present and accounted for!

Cable and linkage!
1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 171
Registered: 1-2006


Sunday, December 16, 2012 - 2:09 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
With the throttle body set on the manifold I could make the final adjustments to the harness and install it in the car. First I wrapped the harness in a weatherproof self stick tape. NOT electrical tape or the GM wire loom. At least it looks more like a Mopar harness.

After that I bolted down the grounds, made the main power connection, connected my "Key On" power to the new harness,connected the laptop to the ALDL and guess what? It Still Works! Still receiving live data, still getting spark.

There's still a few details to work out but so far, so good. I still have to run a fuel return line to the tank, connect lines to the throttle body, install the new pump assembly, install the distributor, drop the exhaust "Y" pipe and mount the O2 sensor.

I still need a speed sensor, i need to run the power for the fuel pump through the car to the tank, i need to make 2 connections for the ECU to the starter relay, one for park/neutral and one for starter signal. Check back after the holidays for more updates.

Heres a few photos.



1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Bill_usn1
Junior Member
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2012
Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 6:04 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
I wouldn't worry too much about the pk/n. The system works fine with it left open. this is the normal configuration for a manual trans.
The PK/n needs to be a solid gnd on/off not a floating gnd to operate properly.
I used to use the pk/n but sometimes resulted in a creeping idle speed so I now leave it open.

There are several options for the adapter plate from transdapt if someone is looking to buy vs make. They are in the original FAQ's. i started out making all of my own also which is why i have all those adapter diagrams!
If using 1/4" plate i recommend using allthread studs with JB weld on the threads in the plate so you use nuts and washers on top. this will allow the installation and removal without wearing on the few threads in the plate.
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 174
Registered: 1-2006


Thursday, December 20, 2012 - 6:27 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Good to know about the creeping idle, Bill. I tested my P/N switch and it seems good so since I have an auto trans I'll connect it and if I run into issues I'll disconnect it and hide it in the harness.

The full thread throttle body mount studs are a good idea, I thought i saw them in your full build with the Caprice parts. That would allow me to use the Caprice air box if I wanted to.
1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Bill_usn1
Junior Member
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2012
Friday, December 21, 2012 - 1:07 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Thinking about the fuel sender...would it be better to mount the pump directly below the sender and then add the 90* tube below the pump.
I'm just really concerned with the 1-1.5 lbs hanging and bouncing out on the end of that 6-8" long tubing.
It may be a little difficult to attach the filter screen to your style pump but there are other pumps that would allow a connection on top and bottom and then use a new stock style sock on the end.

With that, my biggest concern with using an intank pump on an older vehicle conversion is, no matter how clean people say there tank is, unless it is freshly dipped and lined with a tank sealer, a brand new fram inline filter on most conversions is restrictive within the first week following a new conversion.
So maintenance becomes a huge concern to me. I have been installing my own pump inline since my first one more than 12yrs ago and have never replaced a pump. But I regularly replace the filter just like an oil change. With an intank pump you will never remove it to replace the pickup filter until you have a problem. And by then it may be too late for the pump.

There are lots of reasons guys do an intank fuel pump but i just want to provide the other side of the story and things to think about.
Even if the tank is clean...the fuel you pump in may not be completely clean.

Another concern of some is noise. If properly installed and a good pump, there is no noise from an external pump.

Another concern is always the where do i mount it.
Well most cars have a frame so there is always a place to mount the pump along the frame. I normally chose just in front of the rear tire so it is at a level at or below the tank.
I figure if I can find a place to mount one on my unibody classic mini cooper, then there really should be no concern for other makes!!

just food for thought.
There are many ways to achieve good results on and install.
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 175
Registered: 1-2006


Friday, December 21, 2012 - 2:43 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Bill, Mounting the pump directly under the sender is a good idea and may not interfere with the gauge float. I haven't finalized anything yet as I'm still thinking about all the pros and cons. My gas tank is brand new so no worries about debris other than what comes in the fuel.

At this point I have the in-tank pump and have nothing to lose. If its too noisy or bouncy or rubs, then I'll purchase an in line pump and mount it to the frame rail.

I agree for most people an in line pump and filter would be the easiest way to go, but I almost never take the easy route!

I appreciate you sharing your perspective and advice on this. That's why we post projects in forums, because no matter how well we think we planned something, someone else has a different or better way of doing it.

I'll post the final pump setup prior to install.
1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 176
Registered: 1-2006


Saturday, December 22, 2012 - 2:51 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
I've been thinking about the clearance needed for the pump to fit through the opening and the distance from the opening to the bottom of the tank. The pump mounted vertical close to the sender would need a 90 degree turn up for the fuel pickup, then a 180 degree back down to the pump. That's too tall to fit into the tank opening and the pickup would not be at the lowest part of the tank either. There's a reason they hang internal pumps from the top of the tank in modern cars.

I COULD cut up my tank, add a mount from a newer vehicles tank, have it welded and have the pump internal and hanging from the top But that seems like way too much work. Scrap Plan "A"!

On to plan "B", I can drill and tap the pump for a hose barb and install the pump along the frame. Check the photos of the location I chose on the right side, inside of the frame for the pump and filter.

Pump mounted as high as possible.

the filter will go here and angled to fit the frame.

I'll use the original fuel line for the return and add a new line for fuel delivery.

Add barbed fitting here with a little JB Weld!
1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Bill_usn1
Junior Member
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2012


Saturday, December 22, 2012 - 3:24 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
I think that would be a better choice.
Something I have done on some older vehicles is to remove the original pickup tube from the sender and than solder in a new 3/8 pickup tube.
You won't need a new sock in the tank with the clear inline filter before the pump.
I normally cut a V in the end of the tube or cut it on a angle so a leaf or chip in the tank is less likely to plug it.
A good 5/16 feed is enough to feed a stock V8 but every connection and bend starts to reduce it's capability.
Keep in mind if you use brass barbs that a 5/16 barb is about 1/4"id.

You can also wrap the pump in closed cell foam and then grab a couple of insulated Adel clamps to secure it to the frame.

The fram G3 filter is 3/8 and the G2 is 5/16.


pump

pump install
Hamiltonfuelinjection.com
Binderplanet.com injection Moderator
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 182
Registered: 1-2006


Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 4:06 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
The holidays are over and time to get back to work. I'm still getting over the flu so I didn't crawl under the car to mount the pump, but I did fabricate the fuel lines in the engine compartment.

I removed the fuel pump and made a block off plate from some plate steel I had laying around.





My new chip burner and new chips arrived the other day. It really is easy to tweak and program a new chip for this system. I had read a chip, erased it, loaded a new bin file and confirmed it within 3 min.

1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Jkirk
Senior Member
Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2009


Saturday, January 12, 2013 - 5:25 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Chip burner I'm jealous. 24 Pin or 28 Pin chips. Let me know how it goes. I found a speed sensor for a 83 Dodge Diplomat 3.7L from Rock auto it is a 4 pole because 50 mph shows up on 100+ on the computer.
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 183
Registered: 1-2006


Sunday, January 13, 2013 - 5:22 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
28 Pin erasable chips. No UV eraser required. I just need to modify the chip and the chip holder in the computer.
1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Bill_usn1
Junior Member
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2012


Sunday, January 13, 2013 - 6:25 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Here's the easy way to run a EEPROM in place of the EPROM.


http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80053
Hamiltonfuelinjection.com
Binderplanet.com injection Moderator
Jkirk
Senior Member
Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2009


Monday, January 14, 2013 - 6:35 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Thanks Bill
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 185
Registered: 1-2006


Saturday, January 19, 2013 - 2:57 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
I dropped the exhaust today so I could add the threaded mount to the "Y" pipe for the O2 sensor. (I hate trying to disconnect an exhaust system after the clamps have been tightened)

I marked the pipe for the location of the sensor before I removed the exhaust. Drilled the hole and had to use a file to make it large enough to fit the sensor through it. I cut in half a spark plug anti-fouler and welded it in place.

I ground the welds and double checked to make sure I had a good seal before re-installing the "Y" pipe. the last thing I want is to remove it again. Once that was done I re-installed the "Y" pipe and installed the sensor.







1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Jameybro
Senior Member
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2009


Sunday, January 20, 2013 - 5:13 am   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
I'm enjoying this thread Roger!
Thanks for the detailed posts...
Jamey
1965 Barracuda Formula S
2004 Dodge 3500 5.9L Cummins
Daprez
Moderator
Post Number: 186
Registered: 1-2006


Monday, January 21, 2013 - 1:44 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
OK! Had a good day getting things done. First up was run the power wire for the fuel pump. YEAH! That was fun! Had to take apart half the car to run the wire along the same route as the sending unit wire. The back seat, the rear trunk divider, the cargo area carpet and trim, the metal cargo sub floor, the drivers side rear door panel, the drivers side kick panel and rocker trim.

Just to run one wire.

Once that was done and the car re-assembled I removed the sending unit to add the return fitting. I tack welded it in place then used JB Weld on the inside and outside to seal it.

I took the fuel pump bracket I made with the rubber mounts and installed it with the fuel pump.

I made the new fuel lines and installed the one from the pump to the engine, the fuel filter and line to the tank will go in next weekend. Its getting very close to a test fire. I still need to install the distributor and drill a hole to pass the harness through the firewall. I'm waiting for the grommet to arrive.

Picture Time!

You can see how much got moved just to run the fuel pump power wire.

The new sender before sealing.

Here is the mounting bracket and hardware.

The mount installed.

The fuel pump installed.
1966 Barracuda, 318 V8, 904 AT, 7 1/4 rear, 4 Piston Kelsey/Hays Disc Brakes, 10 Rear Drum,TQ 4bbl, MoPar Electronic Ignition. (soon to be Fuel Injected and computer controlled ignition)
Jkirk
Senior Member
Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2009


Friday, January 25, 2013 - 5:38 pm   Edit PostDelete PostView Post/Check IPMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)   
Roger that is why fuel pump feed is under the car. but I had to pull most of the same panels to find a shorted backup wire.

How is the pump sound transmission.